Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time
Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time
Nathan! where are you getting these paraphrased scriptures? obviously you’ll never experience childbirth but (God-willing n that is if you and you’re soon to be wife have plans/hopes to be parents), as a man, you might desperately want to take on your wife’s pain at childbirth, not wanting to see her suffer; and it’s not about the world being an awful place. this verse is the earth personified as a woman experiencing childbirth. The pain is temporary. Granted the pain the earth is going through seems prolonged but in comparison to eternity, it is not. When the New Earth is ‘birthed’ we along with all of God’s creation will rejoice! Forever!
on another note…regarding Assurance vs Perseverance doctrines, i have gotten my copy of “Run to Win the Prize” by Schreiner. It’s a small book. It’s preface explains that it’s a condensed version (in a way) of a former book “The Race Set Before Us” which was too comprehensive for most thus not widely read.
My dear brother, we are on opposite sides of this coin! I’ve only begun reading this small book and have had ‘ah-ha’ moments in Scripture that I hope you’ll have as well when you get the chance to read it…that is, if you do.
I know you’re a busy man but i hope you’ll be blessed to read Scripture with the Holy Spirit’s empowerment to understand God’s intent, principles and Truth. We are all growing in the knowledge of Christ and must encourage one another to do so. Those who do not heed these exhortations/encouragements miss out on so much and it’s sad and yes… frustrating. But I still don’t think they loose salvation; however I haven’t finished reading ‘Run to Win the PRize’ yet and I’ll have to ponder Scripture with the Holy SPirit’s enabling to understand further.
getting back to the birth thing. when i was going through the pains of childbirth with our first child, my husband gripped my hand and desperately wanted to take on the pain himself so that i wouldn’t suffer so.
Though suffering of childbirth is intense, i think most of us, upon becoming mothers are so amazed with the gift of a child that the memory of pain subsides to the point of complete oblivion. I vaguely remember the pain with no bitterness, disappointment or otherwise. Being a mother has brought me even closer to Christ.
My husband’s desire to help me with the pain of childbirth was a gift of his love for me. I’ll always remember his empathy.
Jesus loved us even more that He took upon Himself all the suffering we otherwise would have experienced if it weren’t for His sacrifice.
Hi Lin,
First, I want to thank you for continuing to read the daily verses!
After reading your response, there two things I want to address: the interpretation of this scripture, and your overall desire to know more theology
I agree that this verse uses the metaphor of childbirth to create a reference point of the world’s pain, but judging by your overall candor (what I see as a personalized overreaction to a woman’s view of childbirth) and platform of logic, the true meaning of this verse wasn’t fully apparent
To begin, if we read all of Romans 8, the context for this verse becomes distinctly clear, as Paul describes a world and habit pattern of sin, and how creation is waiting for the sons of God to be revealed, ie: those who will inherit salvation through the power of God’s work through Jesus
However, where this verse was not fully understood, is that the metaphor for childbearing is used to describe the world because, while waiting for perfection to come and Jesus’ work to be perfected it is in great pain under the weight of sin and death. Where this verse gets interesting, is that the greek word for childbearing used here is “synōdinō” which means “working, working together” and also compares work of this kind to the “agony of childbirth”, but it is not talking about the idea of actual childbirth like you describe. Paul is using this word to compare the state of the world (in agony because it is burdened by death, sin, etc…) to the level of excruciating pain that comes when giving birth
This scripture is not just saying that the world is in a process like someone is giving birth, because it means much more than that, it means that the world is in total agony because of the sin and the death that was introduced through the fall of mankind, but that there is hope through Jesus
If you want to do some extra reading, check out the variety of links on this topic here: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+whole+world+groans+because+of+sin
My original comment on this verse, which wasn’t a part of your dialog, is that people often question why God allows the world to be so awful if he is such a good and loving God, which is the wrong way to look at the earth’s varying grotesqueries
Regarding your desire to know more theology, I think it is great, and not many people show a genuine interest to learn more than they know, but I would encourage you to dig into the Bible and know how solid your opinions are before presenting them as fact, or at least put them forward with a caveat
I have spent a lifetime studying the Bible, and I still get surprised sometimes, so it is best to know exactly what we are talking about when speaking, and having total humility when we do not
Also, before touting that a singular book supports your opinion, one that you could not sufficiently backup with scripture previously, keep in mind that people can find books on anything, with any point of view they want to feel good about–it just doesn’t mean that the book or the person’s opinion are right or wrong
Regardless, I look forward to your response on the topic since it seems you are going to use this book as a platform of debate, and I greatly look forward to you dissecting the verses I used in our original discussion as those are the platform for my point of view, I only ask that you use the original thread we started discussing the idea in
Hi Lin,
First, I want to thank you for continuing to read the daily verses!
After reading your response, there two things I want to address: the interpretation of this scripture, and your overall desire to know more theology
I agree that this verse uses the metaphor of childbirth to create a reference point of the world’s pain, but judging by your overall candor (what I see as a personalized overreaction to a woman’s view of childbirth) and platform of logic, the true meaning of this verse wasn’t fully apparent
To begin, if we read all of Romans 8, the context for this verse becomes distinctly clear, as Paul describes a world and habit pattern of sin, and how creation is waiting for the sons of God to be revealed, ie: those who will inherit salvation through the power of God’s work through Jesus
However, where this verse was not fully understood, is that the metaphor for childbearing is used to describe the world because, while waiting for perfection to come and Jesus’ work to be perfected it is in great pain under the weight of sin and death. Where this verse gets interesting, is that the greek word for childbearing used here is “synōdinō” which means “working, working together” and also compares work of this kind to the “agony of childbirth”, but it is not talking about the idea of actual childbirth like you describe. Paul is using this word to compare the state of the world (in agony because it is burdened by death, sin, etc…) to the level of excruciating pain that comes when giving birth
This scripture is not just saying that the world is in a process like someone is giving birth, because it means much more than that, it means that the world is in total agony because of the sin and the death that was introduced through the fall of mankind, but that there is hope through Jesus
If you want to do some extra reading, check out the variety of links on this topic here: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+whole+world+groans+because+of+sin
My original comment on this verse, which wasn’t a part of your dialog, is that people often question why God allows the world to be so awful if he is such a good and loving God, which is the wrong way to look at the earth’s varying grotesqueries
Regarding your desire to know more theology, I think it is great, and not many people show a genuine interest to learn more than they know, but I would encourage you to dig into the Bible and know how solid your opinions are before presenting them as fact, or at least put them forward with a caveat
I have spent a lifetime studying the Bible, and I still get surprised sometimes, so it is best to know exactly what we are talking about when speaking, and having total humility when we do not
Also, before touting that a singular book supports your opinion, one that you could not sufficiently backup with scripture previously, keep in mind that people can find books on anything, with any point of view they want to feel good about–it just doesn’t mean that the book or the person’s opinion are right or wrong
Regardless, I look forward to your response on the topic since it seems you are going to use this book as a platform of debate, and I greatly look forward to you dissecting the verses I used in our original discussion as those are the platform for my point of view, I only ask that you use the original thread we started discussing the idea in
Nathan, i can’t find the original thread and besides that, we are not equals when it comes to having spent a lifetime studying the BIble so i would be wasting your time as well. It will be a long time before i say I’ve been studying God’s Word for a lifetime. You’re a formidable student of God’s Word and it was interesting to read your blog these few times but your inherent anger towards the body of CHrist for not being as mature as you are is evident – at least to me it is. Peace and see you on the other side.
Hi Lin,
I am sorry that you feel I didn’t want to hear your point of view, because that is why I responded, as I assumed it was why you wanted to start a discussion in the first place
To that point, becoming angry and stomping off when someone disagrees with us is exactly the kind of closed minded attitude that gives Christianity a bad name in the eyes of the world sometimes
Also your response is a reflection that you did not read what I said, as I was not lording my studies over anyone, but stating that despite studying for years, I still get surprised by new knowledge and maintain humbleness if I don’t have tons of scriptural proof of a particular thought or idea even if it feels “right”
I don’t know everything, and I want to engage in positive and constructive dialog on a theological basis that involves scripture, and not rely on personal conjecture as the platform for debate
I hope you still continue to search for the answers you started out looking for when we began talking