Most of us enjoy different forms of non-Christian entertainment, whether it is TV, movies, music, etc…, some of it is pretty safe to watch, some of it probably isn’t, but no one is holding a gun to our heads forcing us to watch or listen to anything that offends us or God–so when do we draw the line and turn something off?
Navigating The All Too Familiar “Too Much” Moment
Okay, we have all been in situations where we listened to music, watched a tv show, sat in a movie, etc… where we were exposed to something that we found offensive or made us feel uncomfortable
But do we always reach for the skip button or off switch?
Honestly, a lot of times we don’t, but why?
Especially within a group setting, not turning something offensive off can create a weird gap or silence when everyone thinks something is offensive, but nobody does anything about it
Awwwkward…
But I can guarantee if God were sitting with in the room, we would turn whatever it was off faster than lightning!
Oops, I Did *Not* Expect That
Growing up and as an adult, I have always watched movies and listened to music that wasn’t Christian
This is due to the fact that there are not many Christian bands with an original sound that I enjoy, and because there are not a lot of Christian movies in general
Knowing that this is dangerous territory, I am always careful to monitor the emotional intent and lyrics of the music I listen to very closely, and will skip past bad scenes in movies or turn them off completely if there is something I don’t like, but there are times when I am confronted with something that I really did not expect to be exposed to
One thing that I noticed is that as time goes on, what was considered offensive before is considered tame compared to a lot of things today
For example, a long time ago I used to watch horror movies (yes, I know), but one day I watched one that went beyond anything I had seen before in terms of graphic violence, and it really made me feel ill
The first thing I thought when I saw this was:
“I was not expecting that, they abused my trust in the rating system”
At that point, I had realized that throughout my movie watching, I had genuinely come to a place of expected safety
This meant I trusted that I would not be exposed to anything past a certain threshold in a movie just because of the rating, but, not taking into account human nature and how “enough” is never enough, I was naively thinking that this threshold would never shift–but, as it always does, it eventually did
In music, I didn’t notice this as much as the things that I listened to did not have bad lyrics that escalated (I listened to a lot of old funk and house music that doesn’t have lyrics anyways), but I saw the music industry welcome people who brazenly sang about all sorts of things that were previously “not okay” as a way of shocking people and gaining popularity
Most were talented musicians, but they understood that just being talented wasn’t enough, they had to say and do things other people were not, and in a lot of cases, this meant pushing the envelope
Can We Avoid That “Too Much” Moment?
Depending on the music or movies we like, it is overly optimistic to think we can totally avoid being exposed to things that go farther than we would prefer
And no matter what, just by being out in the world, we are going to be presented with uncomfortable situations around music, movies, tv shows, etc…
So, I guess the answer is no, we won’t be able to totally avoid things that offend us, but the truth is, there are situations we can definitely avoid by being proactive and removing offensive entertainment when it crosses a threshold
For example, I recently stopped watching The Office after six years because it had a really offensive joke in the season opener last week
I also did this with Family Guy when it crossed the line, South Park, and tons of other things
I am on a one-strike system that works pretty well for me as I don’t want my home or thoughts to be a place where God is not pleased to be in, and I don’t like watching or listening to something with the worry that I may be offended at any moment
And, just think about what you would watch or listen to if Jesus was in the room with you–that would change your playlist quite a bit
Matthew 28:19
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age
In the cases where we are not sure if something is okay or not, we should listen to our God given consciences to know whether something is right or wrong, as we will have to answer some day as to why we ignored them
Eep!
Romans 2:14-15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them
What makes some form of entertainment non-Christian?
What exactly does something being “offensive” entail, and is offensive material always mean it should be turned off?
I’m gonna use an example of song lyrics as an example for my next question:”I was a baby. Maybe I was just a couple of months. My faggot father must’ve had his panties up in a bunch ’cause he split. I wonder if he even kissed me goodbye; no I don’t. On second thought, I just fucking wished he would die.”
Are these lyrics you would call “bad-lyrics” and why? If they are bad, what would you do to make them good?
Hello,
The way that I look at music is that it is captured emotion, as nothing can inspire thoughts, feelings, and even physical responses, as completely and consistently as music can
If I am listening to any music, I try to understand what the emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and philosophical intent is of a song or band, as we listen to music because on some level we enjoy it
If we look at the notion that music is captured emotion, then when we enjoy something, it is because the music resonates with something inside of us, which means that on some level, we are agreeing with whatever it is that the music is expressing
When I read things like what you posted, and don’t post profanity like this here again or you will be permanently banned, their intent of expression seems clear, but I would not listen to something like that, swear words or no, as I have no interest in agreeing with or exposing myself to music that expresses or promotes unforgiveness and anger like that
If Eminem really did have a situation where his father left him at a young age, he is dealing with it in a way that has nothing to do with God’s power and love, ie: unforgiveness and anger
To answer your original question of “what makes something offensive”, some might feel swearing might make something bad, or nudity, or whatever… but for me, if something contradicts the character we are encouraged to model ourselves after, ie: perfect love, then it is offensive to me and a waste of time, regardless of however one might choose to rationalize something as being “okay”
Romans 14:23
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin
I apologize. I should’ve looked for a list of words you’d consider profane.
Your view of this subject seems to be a narrow view that many Christians I know take. Could you please elaborate on your concept of intellectual intent?
It’s my belief that Eminem was simply expressing how he felt during a painful situation of his life. How do you know that he didn’t pray about it or already forgive his father? For all we know, this song could even be his prayer to God.
Many Christians would assert that God isn’t concerned with hearing prayers such as the lyrics in this song. I would point out that Lord Jesus experience our pains and our pleasures. God is a God who cares about our pains and pleasures as well. In the Gospel writings, Jesus asked his Father to take the responsibility of dying for us off of him. Clearly, that prayer goes against God’s plan, yet Jesus still expressed how he felt. What example does this leave for King Jesus’ followers?
Jesus did not ignore his emotions, but fully disclosed them to his Father, knowing fully that they were not in line with what his Father’s plan was. Despite these emotions, he still went on to do God’s will and save all who believe. Jesus had the full experience of human life. Music captures that experience (if not all of it, an awful lot of it). Instead of dismissing music simply because it expresses and emotion one deems negative, one should look more deeply into why they consider it negative and understand the emotions presented.
Ignoring things that shock or offend us isn’t always the wise option. One of the many complaints I hear about Christians is the amount of narrowness and ignorance concerning the human experience of emotions. Many of us don’t realize how similar we are to non-Christians because we’re too busy suppressing our emotions instead of bringing them out and dealing with them. On a surface level, this inevitably turns non-Christians off to the Gospel (although it is ultimately their responsibility to accept the Gospel). Jesus himself did many shocking things during his time on earth in order to teach us things we wouldn’t learn being in our comfort zone.
Concerning so called “profane” words, would you ban the Apostle Paul from this blog if he used the word “skubala” in a post? (Philippians 3:8)
Hello,
Before continuing, may I ask a question:
Do you feel you are engaging in this dialog as a model of Christ’s love?
There is nothing I enjoy more than a good debate, but hopefully we can agree that acting aggressively is generally not a good way to have people respond positively to our ideas, but I am happy to walk through your points as they are interesting
As a precursor, I want to put forward that the majority of Christian music does not delve into the emotional agony that mankind sometimes finds itself in, and is generally pretty empty when it comes to dealing with “real” emotional situations
Ha!
From my experiences, it is mostly a collection of “safe”, feel-good expressions that have a way of restricting people’s emotional tapestry to a very bland, unrealistic palette
I mean seriously, where are the “world shattered” breakup songs, the “I am angry at my parent(s)” songs, the “I am alone and angry at God because I don’t have a spouse” songs, etc… that deal with the reality of being both human and being Christian
They just aren’t there, which is really too bad, as the idea that people are hurt isn’t exactly a new one, and God is the answer for any, and all, woes in this lifetime
1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you
Moving on, the reference to intellectual intent is about understanding the ideas being presented within a song, as they are generally thoughts, feelings, philosophies, etc… that the artists are sharing with the world. Sure, people often write music for themselves to express or deal with things in their lives which can seem very personal and private, but when they share it publicly, it becomes something that has the opportunity to influence other people. Generally speaking, bands usually want their music to connect with people in some way, otherwise nobody will care about it
To clarify my point about not listening to certain things if they do not follow the path of God’s wisdom, I am not against expressing true feelings in prayer as God knows them before we open our mouths, but I am not interested in listening to expressions that have no desire for godly resolution as that tends to just propagate an existing emotional state rather than help us move past it
Regarding Jesus speaking to God about having the cup passed for him, let’s look at that passage in detail:
Matthew 26:38-42
Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
Yes, Jesus was human, and yes, he was so overcome with grief and sorrow that he asked God if there was another way to achieve God’s will other than him dying in the manner he knew was facing him–but in his prayer, he did not utter one word of rebellion, anger, or unwillingness, as he said in his prayers:
“Yet not as I will, but as you will”
“May your will be done”
Meaning: he was literally sweating blood, but he still had more reverence and respect for God than to be angry or upset with him for what was about to happen, he was just doing the last call “is there really no other way around this?”
This is the example we are to take from this passage, that it is okay to express ourselves to God about our feelings, but with reverence and respect–fully remembering who it is we are standing in front of, not swear at him and say things like “I just f*****g wished [you] would die.”
Regarding reverence for God when we feel slighted, I personally had a hard time with this lesson, as, when I was young, I was beaten and molested by my father for years, and I had a huge amount of anger as well as resentment towards God that manifested in a lot of rebellion and spitefulness
I could feel true rage inside of me sometimes, and I would lash out at God through my behavior and even say things in my head like “God how could you let something like that happen to me, I was just a little boy!”
Well, the reality of what I was dealing with at the time, which took me a long time to accept, was that God doesn’t promise us sunshine and roses throughout life, but he does promise to always be faithful and be there for us no matter what happens
All in all, my heart was so hardened to the point when at a recovery group I was attending many years ago, the leader asked what we were struggling with and I blurted out:
“I am angry at God for what happened to me when I was little”
*crickets*
I agree that a lot of Christians have a fairly muted emotional tapestry, but for anyone who has been through difficult things and overcome them through Christ, they understand God’s love from a much different perspective–but this can only happen once they mature and move past the anger, unforgiveness, fear, bitterness, etc… which are typically the aftermath of negative life experiences
In my case, this process took years, probably from the time I was eighteen to twenty-eight or so, not a short amount of time, mainly because I was incredibly stubborn and willful along the way
Regarding swearing, etc…, in my personal life, I don’t care that much about swear words as they are just icons that represent thought, I am much more focused on the intent and message of the person expressing them, and whether or not the music is beneficial for me as someone who is seeking after God
For example, if someone is just expressing raw anger, sadness, etc… that is not very helpful for me as it does not point to a way out of a situation that I may be facing. Sure, a lot of non-Christian music can resonate with feelings that we are having, but it is easy to perpetuate those feelings without moving towards resolution
1 Corinthians 10:23
“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive
Regarding your point that Eminem could have already forgiven his father, etc…, without also providing additional context that reflected this, the expression in his lyrics does not leave much room for interpretation, especially when you dig into the full song which is clear that he is expressing some pretty intense, well fostered negative emotions towards his parents
Let’s take a look at this line which is in reference to his mother:
“You selfish b***h, I hope you f*****g burn in hell for this s**t!”
I am not a rocket scientist, but within the context of Christianity, expressing ourselves in this way is not a reflection of hearts who are forgiving, which is exactly the point where I draw a line–when something in a song does not reflect or guide me towards having a godly character
Can you imagine praying this way to God, would that show a heart that was grateful for the forgiveness God showed to us?
But, if someone sang or prayed something like:
“God, I am filled with anger and resentment towards this person, and I am really having a hard time forgiving them, please help me as I can’t do this on my own”
That is a much different type of expression, and the model we should be seeking to make ourselves in:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres
Regarding Paul’s use of the word “skybalon” in Corinthians, yes, the word is poop, and I don’t think people would consider saying excrement, feces, crap, etc… as being a swear or curse word
POOP!
I have not heard any theological commentaries say that this word was used specifically by Paul as a curse word, just as a word for human road apples to express the amount of value he placed on his old life
Thanks for responding.
To answer your question concerning whether I model the love of Christ in my comment, yes, I am. Granted, I do at times take on a challenging tone of voice when it comes to debating and discussing, but it’s not something to be taken too personally. We’re all here to learn.
Christ challenged peoples views of the world and he did so aggressively. I believe there’s a time for “patty caking” things, then there’s a time to be aggressive. There’s also everything in between.
As for whether people respond positively to my ideas, I know that people will disagree, and I’m fine with that. I didn’t come here to be agreed with. I came to learn and share my views.
Jesus fully knew what his Father’s will was, yet he still expressed to his Father what his emotions were. You honestly think Jesus wasn’t upset with his Father at all? Even when he said “why have you forsaken me”? Even if you argue that he wasn’t upset with God, it still is pretty clear that he was upset with the situation and he still expressed a desire to do something against what God wanted him to do. There’s no way around that fact.
Connecting that to the song lyrics… The nature of music isn’t always like a history book, giving facts and figures accurately as they happened. We don’t know Eminem’s full explanation of the song because we’re not Eminem. We can’t accurately judge his whole view of the situation just because he wrote a song about it. I used the song lyrics as a hypothetical example of someone who just needed to vent their feelings out. What if we looked at what Jesus said (take this cup away from me) and deemed him a sinful person…
The song expresses unforgiveness and hate, but that doesn’t mean the person writing it necessarily has the intent on not forgiving the person. The writer has strong emotions and God is just as concerned about those as he is about anyone elses. You have to recognize the burden you have before you can cast it on Jesus. Might this simply be a dramatic way of Eminem (or anyone else who writes something similar) recognizing or personifying the burden they have to cast away?
You offered an alternative to the lyrics to this song, but I’d argue that just because they didn’t explicitly write that they were planning on forgiving the person, doesn’t mean they didn’t express that sentiment to God. Who are we to say what kind of conversations Eminem has had with God? In another song, he expresses that he hoped and prayed that his dad would come home…
The sources I’ve looked at made it clear that “skubala” was considered a vulgar and impolite word for “poop” that would have definitely garnered a shock from the audience. But even if you argue that it wasn’t vulgar…
What exactly makes a word “bad”? If you hit your toe on something and yell and another guy hits his to and says the “s” word, don’t they both express the same sentiment? We should stay away from perverse speech, but how can you take a word, regardless of context, and say it is a perverse word? where do we draw the line?That makes no sense. IMO, if simple things like choice words are gonna hold us back from trying to understand other people, we’re a very messed up people.
Hello,
I am glad we are having this discussion, though your sarcastic opening statement of:
“I apologize. I should’ve looked for a list of words you’d consider profane.”
Is a little hard to misconstrue as a “Jesus-like” challenging tone
If you want to have a productive (key word), aggressive debate, it makes sense to do so with non-anecdotal, scriptural points, not personal conjecture, sarcasm, and a condescending attitude–these are generally not methods of communication that win debates, they just alienate us from the people we are talking to; being “right” in our minds doesn’t mean everyone automatically listens to or agrees with us
I am nobody’s life coach, but I really welcome you to evaluate the methods of communication you use rather than just brush negative feedback off and say you don’t care how people respond to you and compare yourself to Jesus as justification–that is nothing but your pride talking
And something I really don’t understand, is that you compare yourself to Jesus in the way he challenged the world’s views, which is fairly ironic as your soapbox is justifying contemporary song lyrics, but his was points of discussion revolved around the wisdom of God
Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another
You are missing my point about Jesus, you stated in your earlier post:
“For all we know, this song could even be his prayer to God.”
The issue being that Eminem was angry at his parents and expressing negative emotions, but my point was to take your logic further than you intended, in that Jesus was of course angry and upset as well, but he would never say the same things to God that Eminem was saying to his parents, but by your logic it is okay since God was actually the one who “hurt” Jesus and made him upset in the first place
However, as Jesus was without sin, it is safe to say that the things he said to God were honest, but not sinful, which is different than cursing at God in anger like the song lyrics you quoted
Psalm 4:4
In your anger do not sin
It doesn’t make any logical sense to say it is okay to listen to Eminem use words and statements that we would never say because it taps into an emotion we may be feeling, but I understand that your main intent is to say that not a lot of Christian music deals with dark, serious issues
Regarding whether or not Eminem forgave or didn’t forgive his parents, or debating what his “true” intentions were, this is just as irrelevant as it is off-topic and there is no value discussing it–this is a place to talk about God and the Bible, not discuss Eminem’s relationship with his family or try to interpret his song lyrics as some kind of philosophical guide to live by
Also, the alternative lyrics/prayer was in response to the notion that you said the lyrics may have been Eminem’s prayer to God, so I provided something that reflected the heart of someone who understood God’s love and forgiveness for them in a way that allowed them to see past their own anger and be humble about needing help to forgive–what value is there for us to listen to someone curse at their parents like that?
Exodus 20:12
Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you
1 Timothy 5:1
Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father
It is impossible to argue what Eminem’s intention was, as regardless of where he was or is now regarding his family, his statements are in black and white, and his expression of anger is very clear–there is no debating that
Rather than grab at straws and try to hypothesize about whether or not Eminem forgave his parents or didn’t, can you explain why defending this song and musician is so important to you?
Further to that, is this discussion helping you become a better, wiser, more God-like Christian given that you have quoted zero scripture to support your point of view, and are leaning on made up scenarios in order to validate your sagging points?
In all honesty, we are not having the same conversation as it seems like you are more interested in defending Eminem’s lyrics and life than having a productive conversation around the original point of the article–not watching/listening to things we find offensive or that bother us because they contradict God’s character
If you like Eminem and think everyone should listen to it, okay, great, that is your point of view, and one that people are going to agree or disagree with, but that is really as far as the conversation should go in that it has no value
Can you provide the sources you are citing regarding poop being considered a vulgar swear word, I haven’t seen any and would like to know if what I have been reading is inaccurate. Also, even if it is a swear word, I am pretty sure I would rather accept Paul swearing once throughout the entire body of his books to shock and awe people, rather than use it as justification for listening to Eminem who has built a career on promoting a lifestyle that has nothing to do with a God
Social context makes words bad, ie: if it is considered a swear word within a culture, it is considered bad
Look at the word “fag” for example, that just means a cigarette in the UK, but here, it is a derogatory comment that someone would make about a homosexual person
I agree that words are expressions of emotion and intent, and in the case of your defense of Eminem’s lyrics, they are used to convey messages of anger, unforgiveness, and bitterness–something which is, again, the nature of the exact type of entertainment that contradicts God’s character of forgiveness, love, and patience
Also, if you have some time, check out this article as it refers to the concept of people using the word “love” as a four letter word, similar to how you are saying, ie: just a word that has a variable meaning depending on context
http://www.godandstuff.com/?p=120
Thanks for your response and the article link you provided.
I agree that sarcasm was not the best tactic to use in my overall strategy for this post, thanksI don’t brush off negative feedback. I consider what people think of me, along with what I know (or perceive) my overall goal was and I change accordingly. My sarcasm was the only thing in my posts that came close to being personal, and even that was simply an attack on the overall view that words themselves can be profane, not meant to be personally at you. I’m sorry if you took it personally, but I’m only attacking the view, not pretending to know something about you that I don’t.I doubt that any Bible dictionary is going to say that the Greek word σκύβαλον is equivalent to the English “s”. Translating words from different languages aren’t like math equations where x=y. The best we can do is look at the context the word is used in and figure out the impact and meaning of the word. The word clearly was impolite and vulgar.You mention social context as justification for making a word bad to say. Is there an absolute standard that makes the word bad to say? “Poop” and the “s” word mean the same thing, right? So by what absolute standard are you judging the “s” word to be worst than “poop”? Just because society has attached a strong emotion to a word doesn’t mean it’s bad. Paul used the word in order to strongly illustrate his overall point that his works before he came to Christ were all σκύβαλον compared to the glory of Christ. Yes, he only used it one time (that we know of) but he still used it. Does this not make you question your concept of the morality of the words we use? As I said earlier, I only used these song lyrics as an example to make an overall point that just because something shocks or offends us doesn’t mean it’s always a wise thing to simply turn it off. It’s not wise to simply ignore something just because we don’t agree with it, and paying attention to something doesn’t mean we do agree with it. For this point, I could use any of the numerous lyricist in the world, not just Eminem. My point is not to argue his intention of the song, which we cannot know fully. Eminem as a person honestly isn’t even relevant to my argument, despite you bringing into question the life his lyrics promote. It’s a purely hypothetical example that I compared to Jesus’ conversations with God or someone who’s hurting badly. It’s unfortunate that you think my example is using straw men, so I’d urge you to pay more attention to what I’m saying if that’s the case.
You claimed that I quoted zero scripture. I may not have laid my references to the Gospel writings out in verse-and-example format like you did, but I am in fact referencing the time Jesus spent in the garden before his execution as well as the words he said while he was on the tree. My whole point is to say that God is concerned about the emotions we feel, no matter how dark they may be. Sometimes actively listening to and understanding things that we don’t agree with could very well help us learn more about ourselves and others, and grow.
Even if you think it’s impossible to express these lyrics without sinning, Jesus came to a world full of hurting and evil people and understood those people. That doesn’t mean he agreed with what they were doing. He understood people, and knew how to reach them because he understood them. He didn’t just “turn off” his experience as a man simply because some of the stuff he saw was offensive.
As I said before, music and poetry isn’t always like a history book, or a literal narrative of events. Again, using the song as purely an example, just because the writer expresses anger (no matter how great) towards their parents doesn’t mean he hates his parents. The words are used to convey an *emotion* of unforgiveness and anger, not the intent on being unforgiving.
I understand what you mean by YHWH being the one who hurt Christ. And my assertion was that Christ was very angry at his Father for doing this to him. I think that most Gospel narrative readers would agree that the narrative itself doesn’t capture the full emotional experience Jesus was having. There’s no way to sugar coat the fact that his words were expressing a desire to sin (part of him desired to not be killed, and him not dying would’ve been his sin). Being our savior, he had to have experience all of our emotions and pains, even anger towards God. Just because it’s not explicitly stated in the text doesn’t mean he did experience the emotions. Through all of that anger and pain, Jesus still didn’t sin. He still intended on doing God’s will.
There was a spacing issue when I was writing this last post. The places were there is no space between the punctuation and the next word are where I intended there to be a new paragraph.
Hello,
Thank you for the apology, though it is half-hearted as anyone who says “sorry you took it that way, but my intent was ______” doesn’t really want to acknowledge that they were wrong–you had the courage to directly open up with a sarcastic, rude comment but don’t have the courage to follow up with a direct apology
Given that your original intent was beyond clear in the loaded questions you were asking, responding with a condescending attitude no less, it is very difficult to take anything you say seriously at this point, especially considering how you are unable to really answer any of the counter points or responses, you just shift your point of view to one of partial agreement, or try to add context where there previously was none, as if nothing happened
With that said, I am not really shocked you would use a statement like this:
“He understood people, and knew how to reach them because he understood them. He didn’t just “turn off” his experience as a man simply because some of the stuff he saw was offensive.”
Against the backdrop of your assertions that Christians should not just turn away from things that are bad or offensive just because they are things we do not like, you lack a solid foundation of context for your point, ie: Jesus saw things that were offensive while he was witnessing to people and entering into their lives, but you are talking about listening to non-Christian music that promotes anger and unforgiveness, the two scenarios could not be farther apart
The truth is, if we want to see more a richer side of the issues humanity faces beyond our own limited experience, we should be acting as Jesus did by going out into the world and preaching to people, not making arguments behind a computer screen about how it should be okay that people listen to music that contradicts God’s character for the sake of “the experience”
Nothing expands our horizons more than understanding the lives and emotional realities of others in a direct, meaningful way
James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead
Regarding the poop reference, you said you had specific sources that substantially said this was considered a vulgarity back in the day, your explanation, while long, isn’t empirical, so it is not possible to consider it as truth. In a world of “I read somewhere that…” discussions, concrete references are the best way to resolve differences in perspective
All in all, within this discussion we aren’t separated by that much, as we agree that Christian music doesn’t do a good job of addressing dark emotions, that it is easy to suppress emotions and not be “real” people as Christians since people tend to put on a shiny happy mask, and that Jesus was genuinely distraught at the notion of dying but didn’t sin through his expression to God
However, my original point is one that you have done nothing to address, which is to say that forms of entertainment which do not honor God’s character are not the best things to partake of
Among the points you are making, the middle ground I believe you are looking for, is that we should be more in tune with our emotions, and feel confident to pray and express ourselves freely, but always remain respectful to God and the people around us–on this we totally agree
Thanks for this discussion.
It’s seems clear to me that you’re reflecting my attitude and my apology to be different than it really is. Whether it’s a misunderstanding or your purposeful doing, I don’t know, and I’m not going to make assumptions about it which one it is.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on certain things, but the middle ground you’ve mentioned is something we can agree on.
Thanks again and keep up the good work with the blogs. They’re very interesting.
Hello,
This site is about open debate, I love conversations and opportunities to grow by sharing ideas–open discussion is always welcome
However, the truth is, when backed into a corner, you are trying to shield yourself with false humility and casting yourself as being misread, which is not only a poor smokescreen for your inability to support your points, but predictable as well
You have no qualms being confrontational, which is great as in a lot of cases it is better to be confrontational and speak your point of view than not (just ask Peter!), my only advice is to stay open minded and be able to have humility when proven wrong or backed into a corner you don’t know how to get out of
Finding ourselves in difficult situations can be great as these are the moments that cause us to grow, having “knowledge” in our heads is no replacement for seeing, and tempering, our reactions during spirited debates–how we handle ourselves in the heat of a moment is the truest reflection of our character
With that said, I hope you keep reading, and I definitely want to hear your thoughts on other topics as well!
It’s werid to me that a show/movie would need to use nudity,swearing,racist jokes, or anything else in that area to get high ratings.
I don’t think a t.v. show or a movie should need that to make it a good tv show/movie. It’s kind of disgusting anyways.
I mean yeah, I’m 16 but I still turn off shows if they get like that.
For example, the new show on MTV ‘Awkward’. I thought it would be a cool show to watch. 30 seconds into the season opener there was a sex scene. I turned it off because I knew I shouldn’t be watching it, the show Awkward was awkward. (No pun intended).
I personally think it isn’t fair that a movie that has a well built plot should be ruined with a sex scene. (how many times have I said that about 3?)
Hi Leah,
I get so annoyed when things have nudity for no reason, I really don’t get that
I used to watch a lot of tv but don’t mainly because there is just so little on that is any good, and because the stuff that is “good”, generally has things in it that I don’t feel good watching
And sixteen or no, you have the power to determine what you watch!
I am proud of you for not exposing yourself to things that you don’t like, you are awesome!
Wow, you come to the party late, and you miss all the fun.
Lemme just say, I’ve had some quasi-Christian acquaintances of late voice the logic: “Jesus said things which shocked people, so to shock was his intent, and thus I should be shocking if I want to be like Jesus.” Unfortunately, I think it’s more analogous to what Harry Truman said when he was called “Give ’em Hell Harry” — That he never wanted to give anyone hell. He just gave the truth, and they thought it was hell. These same folks voiced the thought that Jesus intended to be a “rebel”, which he absolutely wasn’t. He was in full obedience to the authority of his own Father–it was the world which was in rebellion. Whether he was in accordance with or utter contradiction to society’s rules, norms, and mores was trivial to him, inasfar as I could discern. He lived a Godly life, and the fact that it was so different from how everyone else was (and is) living just shows how far many of us are from authority. What we see as Christ’s rebellion, is really just the reflection of his contemporaries–and our own.
“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” (John 5:30)
Rebels tend to exemplify that pseudo-noble spirit of Frank Sinatra, wanting to do it “My Way.” Christ was a model of obedience and respect for the highest authority.
Incidentally, on the original point of entertainment, I’ve been getting a lot more conscious of what I put into my brain, ever since realizing the connection between media studies and Christian worldview. One of the things God won’t tolerate in the least is a liar–and worldviews which promote ungodliness are, by definition, false. Thus to let that sort of stuff seep into my brain is to knowingly listen to a liar, and risk letting his lies infect me. Is that “narrow”? Yes. As a matter of fact, it is narrow, and that is to be embraced:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” (Matthew 7:13)
The worst thing I watched recently was Game of Thrones. The plot was fascinating enough to hook me, but ultimately it’s a story written by a guy who thinks the world is too foul for there to be a God. And the series sets out to prove it, showing a world full of terrible people, doing terrible things, with an excess of pointless gore, nudity, vulgarity, and so on. It’s past the point of ‘realism’ and into ‘surrealism’. By the end of it, I felt befouled. The show was toxic, and a couple months ago I’d have shrugged it off. But now I feel like someone who’s been on a good diet, then goes out to IHOP on a splurge (also a recent personal experience!). What once my body could have handled, in its state of unhealthiness, it now rejects and is literally sickened by, because it has become accustomed to a state of health, and the kind of foods and exercise which sustain that. The only options are, then, to avoid the filth in the first place, or to keep it up until you ‘adapt’–becoming the same filth that you consume.
“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple. “Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.” (1 Corinthians, Chapter 3)
It would seem plain that this applies to my brain as much as my gut. What I put into it will inevitably come back out.
“What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.'” (Matthew 15:11)
Every artwork is a statement. Lately, I’ve felt moved by God to use the artistic talents he gave me, instead of wasting them on hobbyist, secular writing. There seems to be a real void in literature, music, and other entertainment for stories that talk in a real way about real emotions. Heck, most of what I like to write is sci-fi, and there’s an enormous vacuum in SF which is mostly filled up with BS New Agey and Humanist concepts. Augustine’s “God-shaped hole”, if you will, right in the middle of the art world’s soul.
And hey, good ol’ capitalism supports the notion that if you see a need, you ought to fill it. Besides, even if there’s no cashola involved, I’ve always got an audience of One. What I piece together might rebel against the expectations of most readers, but I’ll be striving to obey the standards of that One.
Aren’t I just the bad boy?
Hi Bennett,
I wish there was good Christian entertainment that was more engaging and intellectually challenging–we have the most amazing source material, but nobody seems to have made anything interesting
Maybe I just haven’t seen or read it?
I don’t think science-fiction naturally excludes God, I think it is an amazing backdrop for discussions about humanity, as sci-fi usually is!
The comparison to physical and spiritual food is great, and it takes time and effort to understand and notice shifts in our spiritual health
Luke 6:43-45
No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks
Man, you hit on one of my favorite litmus tests for any philosophy or ideology–the “You shall know them by their fruits” axiom. You can’t get an effect which is unrelated to the cause (one of the better logical proofs for God, in fact, given that an illogical, amoral, indifferent process could not cause logical, moral, loving souls like our own. Sense can decay into nonsense, but nonsense can’t spontaneously form sense.)
I’ve actually just gotten done with a second draft of a short story. It’s the first thing I’ve written in about a year. I had brutal writer’s block for the longest time, and it wasn’t until I got down and prayed for God to let me use my gifts for him, in a way that honored him, that the light came on. It was one of those rare times that you can point to a very discrete, obvious time where you pray for something specific, and God answers it just the way you were hoping. Very rare indeed, because to me it indicates that, for once, your heart and God’s heart are pointed in the same direction.
Hopefully the juice will keep flowing, and I’ll be able to knock the rust off. Structuring and editing good fiction takes a much higher lever of craft than most folks suspect (everyone’s got that great novel idea, after all, never realizing that ‘ideas’ come 50 to a batch–it’s the re-writing and such that make a man out of you.)
I just felt so rotten when I was reading forums, and saw a lot of younger people saying that they love SF, but find it hard to stomach as Christians, because it’s so clear that the writers and much of the fandom not only aren’t Christian themselves, they despise Christ. Not only does that mean that they’re reading Godless fiction that will sooner or later provide a stumbling block (especially to those who are at that stage of adolescence when they start forming their adult paradigm), it’s just so disheartening to see such a gap in a field that could be brilliant. CS Lewis and Tolkien did it excellently, and since them there’s been almost nothing. Most writers to dabble in that field have been, if not agnostic, actively anti-Christian.
Heck, look at Star Trek. Really look at it, especially the original series. Everyone is an atheist, and better off for it, by Roddenberry’s explicit mandate. I realized this (and went to investigate it) in an episode where they meet “Apollo”. Obviously he’s a fake, just an alien with an organ that lets him shoot lightning, but the interactions are telling. He behaves nothing like Apollo from the myths, and instead is a vain megalomaniac with a violent temper, who tries to waylay the crew and force them into primitive superstition. A very arch parody of how secularists perceive the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The interactions between Q and Picard in the Next Generation are telling, too, a vain and petty ‘Almighty’ is ‘presuming’ to judge humanity. And portrayed as utterly in the wrong for daring to question our awesome. Someone whom we’d have to circumvent and overcome.
And if you liked SF as a kid, that’s the worldview that you were shovelled. That gods were superstition, and if they were real then they were phonies, and if they weren’t phonies, then they were evil and selfish. So you would be better off just photon-torpedoing them if you came across one. After all, humans were the pinnacle of awesome. No more wars, no more racism, no more hunger–heck, no more capitalism. It was as if the technocrats figured that sooner or later we’d just overcome human nature altogether, and become gods. Then we could start populating the stars, and worship ourselves. It’s a level of optimism that seems woefully unbefitting an atheist. At least Nietzche and Russell admitted that their conclusions would mean everything was vanity, and were properly grim, bitter, and pessimistic about it.
I don’t flatter myself that I could change the tide, but I always remember Toni Morrison’s explanation for why she didn’t start writing until later in life. She’d been an editor for a while (which I am now, funnily enough), and read all these manuscripts. Eventually she realized that, while there were a lot of good, even great books, nobody had yet written the one that spoke to her, that she really needed to read. So she set out to write it. So that’s kinda where I am, except, yanno… she won Nobels and Pulitzers, and I’d be happy just to not suck. 😉
Hi Bennett,
A great perspective as always!
I grew up reading Greek mythology and all sorts of fantasy novels, as well as Strawberry Shortcake and the Care Bears, but I never looked at them as anything more than fictional characters, equally as satirical in their portrayal of the light, and dark, sides of humanity
That’s right, I just compared to Homer to Strawberry Shortcake
*boom*
But beyond that, sci-fi is an amazing tapestry for human story telling, Asimov was a brilliant writer, and I would really enjoy seeing whatever themes you take on in your writing
In the way that you feel inspired to write because nothing quite speaks what you feel is inside of you to hear, that is why I play music–nobody plays what I feel inspired to express
I am so happy you are not ignoring that voice inside of you, God’s hand upon us is his guidance to great things in his name, and for his kingdom
It is funny though that “cross over” is kind of the golden ring that Christians chase, but I look at it the from the opposite perspective, that I want the world to look at the things written as being so good they don’t reject it immediately because it is Christian, rather than try to make things acceptable to the world by watering it down–go do it!
1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God
have you tried the band half-handed cloud? pure fun!
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